[Post New] 11/17/2008 08:52:24 AM  #41  Subject: Re:Home [Up]
PaikyPoo
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welcome back wse

the rest of this argument is stupid. lost in all this banter about china is the fact that china's avg wage/hr has increased since the chinese opened their manufacturing as semi capitalistic markets. it's the same shit that happened throughout asia. started in japan, moved to taiwan, skipped back north to south korea, then jumped back to malyasia and now it's in china and starting to move into india. why does it keep moving? because labor is cheaper elsewhere in backassward nations. however, with more jobs comes the demand for more skilled labor. as labor trains for more skill they get higher wages. as the labor force starts to earn more, they obviously start to cost more. at a certain point, companies will look for cheaper costs both in materials and labor. anywho, in each case the countries where this "slave labor" started each turned from backassward, mud hut living cultures to manufacturing societies which eventually led their country's economies into the modern age.

in about 20-30 years, your children will be arguing about all the outsourcing happening in some unheard of african nation.
[Post New] 11/17/2008 08:54:10 AM  #42  Subject: Home [Up]
AgentofDarkness
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bluebusa07 wrote:
Just a simple question.. if a job doesn't require skill, and you can pull anyone in off the street to do it... should it really pay much more than minimum wage? Granted in almost any job a strong work ethic and desire to succeed can be noticed and rewarded (yes, even assembly line work), these people make the work environment better for everyone and offer suggestions that will benefit the company. Our economy is based on the system of replaceability. The least replaceable you are, the more you are worth. Take for instance a Doctor, Nurse, and a Janitor. Both the Doc and the Nurse can mop a floor, he gets paid the least. The Doc can do anything the Nurse can, the Nurse gets paid less than the Doc. This system inspires initiative, drive, and provides incentive. The free market takes care of the rest.

There was a lot of free market in the early 20th century. People were working in terrible conditions and getting terrible pay. There were no benefits. If you got hurt on the job, they just got someone else and you were out of luck. Is that what you consider the free market taking care of the rest? The minimum wage is not a free market idea, it is set by the government. If the corporations had their way, the minimum wage would be $1/hr. Look at China, the minimum wage (if one exists) is much lower than here. I doubt anyone cares about the conditions of the workers. They have kids working in factories.
[Post New] 11/17/2008 08:55:40 AM  #43  Subject: Home [Up]
Vice Chaz
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AgentofDarkness wrote:There was a lot of free market in the early 20th century. People were working in terrible conditions and getting terrible pay. There were no benefits. If you got hurt on the job, they just got someone else and you were out of luck. Is that what you consider the free market taking care of the rest? The minimum wage is not a free market idea, it is set by the government. If the corporations had their way, the minimum wage would be $1/hr. Look at China, the minimum wage (if one exists) is much lower than here. I doubt anyone cares about the conditions of the workers. They have kids working in factories.

Different culture, different costs of living, different government. Son, you are comparing apples to oranges.
[Post New] 11/17/2008 09:00:29 AM  #44  Subject: Home [Up]
Crownroyal
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AgentofDarkness wrote:
bluebusa07 wrote:
Just a simple question.. if a job doesn't require skill, and you can pull anyone in off the street to do it... should it really pay much more than minimum wage? Granted in almost any job a strong work ethic and desire to succeed can be noticed and rewarded (yes, even assembly line work), these people make the work environment better for everyone and offer suggestions that will benefit the company. Our economy is based on the system of replaceability. The least replaceable you are, the more you are worth. Take for instance a Doctor, Nurse, and a Janitor. Both the Doc and the Nurse can mop a floor, he gets paid the least. The Doc can do anything the Nurse can, the Nurse gets paid less than the Doc. This system inspires initiative, drive, and provides incentive. The free market takes care of the rest.
There was a lot of free market in the early 20th century. People were working in terrible conditions and getting terrible pay. There were no benefits. If you got hurt on the job, they just got someone else and you were out of luck. Is that what you consider the free market taking care of the rest? The minimum wage is not a free market idea, it is set by the government. If the corporations had their way, the minimum wage would be $1/hr. Look at China, the minimum wage (if one exists) is much lower than here. I doubt anyone cares about the conditions of the workers. They have kids working in factories.

things were tough all over then. if the free market doesnt take care of people, explain why non union businesses pay employees more than the minimum wage? the problem here is we have become a country of people who feel entitled. the constitution does not guarantee happiness, simply the right to pursue it. furthermore, take a look at what we consider poor in this country. the heritage foundation did a study on what exactly constitutes a poor household. most own their homes, have color tvs and cable, 2 cars, etc...
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[Post New] 11/17/2008 09:26:57 AM  #45  Subject: Home [Up]
Princess
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Cheer Bear wrote:
AgentofDarkness wrote:There was a lot of free market in the early 20th century. People were working in terrible conditions and getting terrible pay. There were no benefits. If you got hurt on the job, they just got someone else and you were out of luck. Is that what you consider the free market taking care of the rest? The minimum wage is not a free market idea, it is set by the government. If the corporations had their way, the minimum wage would be $1/hr. Look at China, the minimum wage (if one exists) is much lower than here. I doubt anyone cares about the conditions of the workers. They have kids working in factories.
Different culture, different costs of living, different government. Son, you are comparing apples to oranges.

Not really, the reason why we are not like that now is because many Americans deemed those types of work environments unsatisfactory. I assure you, if the labor laws did not exist here, we would live and work just like the Chinese . It seems you are in favor of completely opening the flood gates to corporations. Just like PP explained, corporations only care about profit and look to spend the least amount on labor. They could care less about human rights, all that matters is their profit margin. Now, I will agree that many unions have gotten out of hand, and they need to seriously adjust their strategies and flex much more to compete in this new global market, but I will not be in favor of their complete removal because I fear what corporations will do in the name of profit if that voice of opposition is completely absent . The difference between China and here are a few laws, take them away and you get USA of China .

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 11/17/2008 09:27:39 AM

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[Post New] 11/17/2008 09:34:27 AM  #46  Subject: Home [Up]
Vice Chaz
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ChiefBD wrote:
Cheer Bear wrote:
AgentofDarkness wrote:There was a lot of free market in the early 20th century. People were working in terrible conditions and getting terrible pay. There were no benefits. If you got hurt on the job, they just got someone else and you were out of luck. Is that what you consider the free market taking care of the rest? The minimum wage is not a free market idea, it is set by the government. If the corporations had their way, the minimum wage would be $1/hr. Look at China, the minimum wage (if one exists) is much lower than here. I doubt anyone cares about the conditions of the workers. They have kids working in factories.
Different culture, different costs of living, different government. Son, you are comparing apples to oranges.
Not really, the reason why we are not like that now is because many Americans deemed those types of work environments unsatisfactory. I assure you, if the labor laws did not exist here, we would live and work just like the Chinese . It seems you are in favor of completely opening the flood gates to corporations. Just like PP explained, corporations only care about profit and look to spend the least amount on labor. They could care less about human rights, all that matters is their profit margin. Now, I will agree that many unions have gotten out of hand, and they need to seriously adjust their strategies and flex much more to compete in this new global market, but I will not be in favor of their complete removal because I fear what corporations will do in the name of profit if that voice of opposition is completely absent . The difference between China and here are a few laws, take them away and you get USA of China .

We would live like the Chinese? In a mud hut?

I'm in favor of corporations and unions working together for the best of both parties. It seems that you and Agent are in favor of protecting the worker, though do not understand how the "office" side of a company with a union operates. Not all corporations are out to rob workers. We have some guys here who do outstanding work and we want to give him a raise, but the Union will not allow this. We also have some guys who are worthless, standing around measuring like a German engineer when our tolerances are +/- 1/16" wasting tons and tons of time losing production hours, but we can't fire him cause he is protected.
[Post New] 11/17/2008 09:38:00 AM  #47  Subject: Home [Up]
PaikyPoo
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ChiefBD wrote:Not really, the reason why we are not like that now is because many Americans deemed those types of work environments unsatisfactory. I assure you, if the labor laws did not exist here, we would live and work just like the Chinese . It seems you are in favor of completely opening the flood gates to corporations. Just like PP explained, corporations only care about profit and look to spend the least amount on labor. They could care less about human rights, all that matters is their profit margin. Now, I will agree that many unions have gotten out of hand, and they need to seriously adjust their strategies and flex much more to compete in this new global market, but I will not be in favor of their complete removal because I fear what corporations will do in the name of profit if that voice of opposition is completely absent . The difference between China and here are a few laws, take them away and you get USA of China .

americans worked in similar if not worse craptastic conditions back in the day. i doubt labor laws are all that are keeping americans from working in poor conditions. you have to consider the evolution of societies from an economic perspective as well as cultural. they're both tied together.

i don't think your statement "they could care less about human rights" needs to be rephrased to something like "they don't care about human rights when they think they can hide it". remember nike and michael jordan both having to do huge public relations smoothing when it was discovered mj's $140 shoes were being made by women and kids getting something like $.50/hr?
[Post New] 11/17/2008 09:38:55 AM  #48  Subject: Home [Up]
Crownroyal
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why are you so anti-profit?! more profit equalls more production, which in turn equalls more jobs! if companies dont make money, they cant make payroll
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[Post New] 11/17/2008 09:40:06 AM  #49  Subject: Home [Up]
Vice Chaz
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bluebusa07 wrote:why are you so anti-profit?! more profit equalls more production, which in turn equalls more jobs! if companies dont make money, they cant make payroll

I dunno what these guys are talking about. Yo, Chief, aren't you a geek? Agent, you too? Any business background?

Wait, I think Chief was a CPA. But shit, he got caught up with his calculator.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 11/17/2008 09:40:36 AM

[Post New] 11/17/2008 09:48:48 AM  #50  Subject: Home [Up]
Princess
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Cheer Bear wrote:
ChiefBD wrote:
Cheer Bear wrote:
AgentofDarkness wrote:There was a lot of free market in the early 20th century. People were working in terrible conditions and getting terrible pay. There were no benefits. If you got hurt on the job, they just got someone else and you were out of luck. Is that what you consider the free market taking care of the rest? The minimum wage is not a free market idea, it is set by the government. If the corporations had their way, the minimum wage would be $1/hr. Look at China, the minimum wage (if one exists) is much lower than here. I doubt anyone cares about the conditions of the workers. They have kids working in factories.
Different culture, different costs of living, different government. Son, you are comparing apples to oranges.
Not really, the reason why we are not like that now is because many Americans deemed those types of work environments unsatisfactory. I assure you, if the labor laws did not exist here, we would live and work just like the Chinese . It seems you are in favor of completely opening the flood gates to corporations. Just like PP explained, corporations only care about profit and look to spend the least amount on labor. They could care less about human rights, all that matters is their profit margin. Now, I will agree that many unions have gotten out of hand, and they need to seriously adjust their strategies and flex much more to compete in this new global market, but I will not be in favor of their complete removal because I fear what corporations will do in the name of profit if that voice of opposition is completely absent . The difference between China and here are a few laws, take them away and you get USA of China .
We would live like the Chinese? In a mud hut?

I'm in favor of corporations and unions working together for the best of both parties. It seems that you and Agent are in favor of protecting the worker, though do not understand how the "office" side of a company with a union operates. Not all corporations are out to rob workers. We have some guys here who do outstanding work and we want to give him a raise, but the Union will not allow this. We also have some guys who are worthless, standing around measuring like a German engineer when our tolerances are +/- 1/16" wasting tons and tons of time losing production hours, but we can't fire him cause he is protected.

I am in agreement with you then . As I have said, not all corporations are cut throat and will ditch all ethics for profit, but many would if given the chance. You are right, in that situation, the unions suck. They need to change the reward policy in your case so that the guy who is a shitty employee gets the bare minimum and the other guy that works his ass off gets the golden parachute . Anything to far to one side is a detriment to us all, BALANCE, BALANCE, BALANCE .
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[Post New] 11/17/2008 09:49:00 AM  #51  Subject: Home [Up]
PaikyPoo
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bluebusa07 wrote:why are you so anti-profit?! more profit equalls more production, which in turn equalls more jobs! if companies dont make money, they cant make payroll

i don't think you can say this with 100% certainty.
[Post New] 11/17/2008 09:53:35 AM  #52  Subject: Home [Up]
Princess
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bluebusa07 wrote:why are you so anti-profit?! more profit equalls more production, which in turn equalls more jobs! if companies dont make money, they cant make payroll
I am not against anyone making a profit as long as they aren't doing it in a sleazy way. The ends don't justify the means.


Cheer Bear wrote:
bluebusa07 wrote:why are you so anti-profit?! more profit equalls more production, which in turn equalls more jobs! if companies dont make money, they cant make payroll
I dunno what these guys are talking about. Yo, Chief, aren't you a geek? Agent, you too? Any business background?

Wait, I think Chief was a CPA. But shit, he got caught up with his calculator. <img src="http://www.2wheelchicago.com//images/smilies/34348098c2f4491ded38f75186e9785c.gif" border="0">

I am an accountant, but not a CPA, my sister is though . I am a computer geek turned accountant when it became difficult to find a job in IT when I graduated .
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[Post New] 11/19/2008 06:21:25 PM  #53  Subject: Re:Home [Up]
burntash
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Let Detroit Go Bankrupt
By MITT ROMNEY

Boston

IF General Motors, Ford and Chrysler get the bailout that their chief executives asked for yesterday, you can kiss the American automotive industry goodbye. It won’t go overnight, but its demise will be virtually guaranteed.

Without that bailout, Detroit will need to drastically restructure itself. With it, the automakers will stay the course — the suicidal course of declining market shares, insurmountable labor and retiree burdens, technology atrophy, product inferiority and never-ending job losses. Detroit needs a turnaround, not a check.

I love cars, American cars. I was born in Detroit, the son of an auto chief executive. In 1954, my dad, George Romney, was tapped to run American Motors when its president suddenly died. The company itself was on life support — banks were threatening to deal it a death blow. The stock collapsed. I watched Dad work to turn the company around — and years later at business school, they were still talking about it. From the lessons of that turnaround, and from my own experiences, I have several prescriptions for Detroit’s automakers.

First, their huge disadvantage in costs relative to foreign brands must be eliminated. That means new labor agreements to align pay and benefits to match those of workers at competitors like BMW, Honda, Nissan and Toyota. Furthermore, retiree benefits must be reduced so that the total burden per auto for domestic makers is not higher than that of foreign producers.

That extra burden is estimated to be more than $2,000 per car. Think what that means: Ford, for example, needs to cut $2,000 worth of features and quality out of its Taurus to compete with Toyota’s Avalon. Of course the Avalon feels like a better product — it has $2,000 more put into it. Considering this disadvantage, Detroit has done a remarkable job of designing and engineering its cars. But if this cost penalty persists, any bailout will only delay the inevitable.

Second, management as is must go. New faces should be recruited from unrelated industries — from companies widely respected for excellence in marketing, innovation, creativity and labor relations.

The new management must work with labor leaders to see that the enmity between labor and management comes to an end. This division is a holdover from the early years of the last century, when unions brought workers job security and better wages and benefits. But as Walter Reuther, the former head of the United Automobile Workers, said to my father, “Getting more and more pay for less and less work is a dead-end street.”

You don’t have to look far for industries with unions that went down that road. Companies in the 21st century cannot perpetuate the destructive labor relations of the 20th. This will mean a new direction for the U.A.W., profit sharing or stock grants to all employees and a change in Big Three management culture.

The need for collaboration will mean accepting sanity in salaries and perks. At American Motors, my dad cut his pay and that of his executive team, he bought stock in the company, and he went out to factories to talk to workers directly. Get rid of the planes, the executive dining rooms — all the symbols that breed resentment among the hundreds of thousands who will also be sacrificing to keep the companies afloat.

Investments must be made for the future. No more focus on quarterly earnings or the kind of short-term stock appreciation that means quick riches for executives with options. Manage with an eye on cash flow, balance sheets and long-term appreciation. Invest in truly competitive products and innovative technologies — especially fuel-saving designs — that may not arrive for years. Starving research and development is like eating the seed corn.

Just as important to the future of American carmakers is the sales force. When sales are down, you don’t want to lose the only people who can get them to grow. So don’t fire the best dealers, and don’t crush them with new financial or performance demands they can’t meet.

It is not wrong to ask for government help, but the automakers should come up with a win-win proposition. I believe the federal government should invest substantially more in basic research — on new energy sources, fuel-economy technology, materials science and the like — that will ultimately benefit the automotive industry, along with many others. I believe Washington should raise energy research spending to $20 billion a year, from the $4 billion that is spent today. The research could be done at universities, at research labs and even through public-private collaboration. The federal government should also rectify the imbedded tax penalties that favor foreign carmakers.

But don’t ask Washington to give shareholders and bondholders a free pass — they bet on management and they lost.

The American auto industry is vital to our national interest as an employer and as a hub for manufacturing. A managed bankruptcy may be the only path to the fundamental restructuring the industry needs. It would permit the companies to shed excess labor, pension and real estate costs. The federal government should provide guarantees for post-bankruptcy financing and assure car buyers that their warranties are not at risk.

In a managed bankruptcy, the federal government would propel newly competitive and viable automakers, rather than seal their fate with a bailout check.

Mitt Romney, the former governor of Massachusetts, was a candidate for this year’s Republican presidential nomination.

[Post New] 11/20/2008 01:19:41 AM  #54  Subject: Re:Home [Up]
whiteSeatEnvy
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Here is where I get confused. I may sound stupid here, but if Ford, GM, and Chrysler own all these other companies, which brands/cars/whatever are the heaviest burden on the bottom line? Are all these brands losing money? Is the Daimler division in trouble as well? What percent of sales for Ford, GM, and Chrysler is export to other countries? What percentage of sales for Toyota, Honda, VW, etc is import to the USA? I imagine tight credit is effecting car sales in general in the USA. How are Toyota, Honda, VW, etc able to weather the storm any better than Ford, GM, and Chysler?

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 11/20/2008 03:26:16 AM

[Post New] 11/20/2008 06:38:42 AM  #55  Subject: Home [Up]
Praetor
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Mort knows the answer to all your questions.
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[Post New] 11/20/2008 07:36:34 AM  #56  Subject: Home [Up]
Headmuffs
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Cheer Bear wrote:
Stephiroth wrote:
Haha, Atlas Shrugged. True Story.
Hey, attention whore troll, it's not a fucking philosophy.





Carry on!
[Post New] 11/20/2008 07:39:46 AM  #57  Subject: Home [Up]
Vice Chaz
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The Chairman wrote:Mort knows the answer to all your questions.

It's the chairman's fault. It's all the white collared fucks faults. The $75/hr they pay the union guys doesn't mean shit. teh $1,700 per car that goes towards UAW health care doesn't mean shit.
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